tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post1946094028942788112..comments2023-06-03T04:00:33.420-07:00Comments on εις επαινον δοξης αυτου: Ideas Have Consequences, citation #1Matthew LaPinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06443707548111194774noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-39003286426381043412007-04-08T20:53:00.000-07:002007-04-08T20:53:00.000-07:00sounds good!sounds good!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-62751956930533639512007-04-08T17:24:00.000-07:002007-04-08T17:24:00.000-07:00Here is my challenge then. Jesse lets both write s...Here is my challenge then. Jesse lets both write something and then critique eachother. I don't think that we are going to come to an agreement on what culture is and how we interact with culture. Let's take the next few weeks and create a document that explains our definition of culture and our interactions within it and then read and critique the other. Let me know on my blog when you are down. I will probably be putting up posts on mine to possibly glean insight from others that read my blog. Sound good!Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13187499358809315191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-40772143112669942952007-04-08T09:30:00.000-07:002007-04-08T09:30:00.000-07:00"As far as I can tell, that definition fundamental..."As far as I can tell, that definition fundamentally changes the meaning of the word "religion" from "systematized structure of actions of relating to God" to "theology", or "anything and everything one thinks about God.""<BR/><BR/>That is exactly the point. Isn't it disturbing that anything and everything we think about God and His creation is what forms our culture? It makes us consider our culture (our own, personally, at least to begin with) what its end is.<BR/><BR/>How we think and feel about God is the most important thing about us, for that is our religion. Everything we do comes from that source.<BR/><BR/>It may be the legacy of Fundamentalism's arminian roots that we think subscribing to a set of doctrinal statements is what constitutes our faith. It is deeper than that, ask Jonathan Edwards (or Paul!).<BR/><BR/>Joey, I agree with you that this conversation wasn't very good. For my part, I need to be more efficient with my words:-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-51929712885249131452007-04-07T21:36:00.000-07:002007-04-07T21:36:00.000-07:00Matt, I totally hear you on the whole "Ideas have ...Matt, I totally hear you on the whole "Ideas have consequences thing". It was definitely Joey's idea to sit here and read all these comments, and the consequence of that is that it's now really late and we're both going to be tired for church in the morning.Jennahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03064315903199951558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-30289037220532271622007-04-07T21:35:00.000-07:002007-04-07T21:35:00.000-07:00Woah there, kids. It's getting hot in here.First ...Woah there, kids. It's getting hot in here.<BR/><BR/>First of all, I can't believe I just spent the last ten minutes reading all that.<BR/><BR/>Second, I think the definition of culture as "the manifestation of your religion" is out of whack. Religion is obviously part of the culture in which you live, but not the be-all-end-all. As far as I can tell, that definition fundamentally changes the meaning of the word "religion" from "systematized structure of actions of relating to God" to "theology", or "anything and everything one thinks about God."<BR/><BR/>In other words, yes, culture is a manifestation of your theology, but not your religion.<BR/><BR/>Well, there's my two cents. Suggestion? Stop looking for culture in books and go find it in the guy down the street who doesn't know Jesus.tie.crawlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07054566291096666760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-26725985674658690312007-04-07T14:43:00.000-07:002007-04-07T14:43:00.000-07:00No, you're not getting at all. I understand the cu...No, you're not getting at all. I understand the culture we all are a part of because we are all a part of it. It isn't good. Of course I'm a part of it. How can I not be? That is the nature of culture. Trust me, I wish it wasn't part of me, but that wasn't my choice. <BR/><BR/>That is one of the problems with the way you are talking about culture, as if it were something that is "take it or leave it." <BR/><BR/>I can point you to the books I'm reading where I'm getting this. Would that suffice?<BR/><BR/>I have not yet written anything very well. Do you want me to try?<BR/><BR/>Remember, I am still waiting for you to give a definition of culture, or at least tell me of a book where I can find it. And I asked first :-) First comment on your blog....<BR/><BR/>You should read Bauder and Dissidens. You should read Eliot and Lewis. You should read Tolkien's essays and see what Barfield had to say. They are all worth reading. Much more so than anything that the emerging church has to tell us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-17417623801492947072007-04-07T11:57:00.000-07:002007-04-07T11:57:00.000-07:00have you written something then that tells me what...have you written something then that tells me what you believe then on culture. I don't want to read something by bauder I want to read your words. Your understanding all of this because I am having a hard time understanding your definition of "culture." To be honest it does sound like you are living in your own culture that you have your family in and make them then spectators to the culture in which they are subcultured. Secluded so that the other culture doesn't get anything on the subculture. How then do you understand culture if you don't live within that culture?Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13187499358809315191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-19529690764826583812007-04-06T23:32:00.000-07:002007-04-06T23:32:00.000-07:00No, that isn't quite it. You see, I have the same ...No, that isn't quite it. You see, I have the same culture they have. And so do you. And it is bad. I'm working on mine so my kids have something better, that's for sure. I want people to be saved from their sins, and I want Christians cast off all of their sinful ways. <BR/><BR/>I don't think one can grasp what I believe about culture in a few blog comments. I certainly can't explain it that efficiently!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-91474532402151553382007-04-06T18:21:00.000-07:002007-04-06T18:21:00.000-07:00on the issue of Multicultural churches, I posted a...on the issue of Multicultural churches, I posted an article on my blog. Check it out. <BR/><BR/>secondly, to Jesse. Do you live in the world or outside of the world? Weird question but here is what I mean. Is it our job to lead them to Jesus to save them from their cultural or their sin? I am trying to understand your core belief in culture and I think it is since, culture "is the manifestation of one's religion" since the religion of the world is atheism, paganism, idol worship, anything not Christian, their culture then is rooted in sin and therefore dismissed as being sinful and no good. Your culture then, being root in the Bible and Jesus is good. You are acting as a lifeguard, rescuing people from their culture and making them like your culture. Am I right on that?Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13187499358809315191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-84808419253637584162007-04-03T16:18:00.000-07:002007-04-03T16:18:00.000-07:00Justin, This is pretty good:http://teampyro.blogsp...Justin, <BR/><BR/>This is pretty good:<BR/>http://teampyro.blogspot.com/<BR/>2007/04/glad-you-asked.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-9950590171192055542007-04-03T15:59:00.000-07:002007-04-03T15:59:00.000-07:00For your last post -That is not at all what I am s...For your last post -<BR/><BR/>That is not at all what I am saying. Are we here to get some quick decisions? I'm here to worship God and to help others do the same. If teens are saved into a religion where irreverence for God reigns supreme, I have not done my job.<BR/><BR/>Sin permeates every part of me. Can you believe that I would try to get rid of it? You must understand that culture is the manifestation of one's religion. What is your religion? What ought your culture be like? Justin, simply put, this is a "by their fruits you shall know them" kind of thing.<BR/><BR/>If you use irreverent and meaningless activities to get kids saved, what are you saving them from? Nothing. You are validating the sin at the heart of their culture. <BR/><BR/>I do understand the culture I live in. I do understand that it permeates every part of me. I weep for it. It is a terrible thing to come to know. To still love it is the sign of not understanding it as it is.<BR/><BR/>I understand their culture. THAT is what makes me want them to be saved from it.<BR/><BR/>As far as my comment specifically about Youth Pastors, I was pointing out the vicious and inconquerable cycle that we have created. I wasn't even speaking about evangelisation, per se. I was speaking of the primary responsibilities of parents (after worshipping God for themselves), which is to raise their children to fear God. Their love of Pop Culture has created this sadly laughable situation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-87936214332034329352007-04-03T15:44:00.000-07:002007-04-03T15:44:00.000-07:00You first need to know what your freedoms in Chris...You first need to know what your freedoms in Christ are. I don't have the freedom to love the world. Therefore, even though the world isn't offended by its own culture (why would they be?), I still don't have the freedom to love it and use it. I don't think Christian Liberty comes into this very much at all. <BR/><BR/>The disclaimer is what it is. If Dr. John Hiii were to write a paper on his own, on topics that the faculty at Faith might disagree (they do disagree on things), he might put a similar disclaimer on it. It is just to say, "this is me talking, not necessarily the seminary."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-31974362634097692012007-04-03T14:45:00.000-07:002007-04-03T14:45:00.000-07:00prepetuating a love of Pop Culture is a kind of jo...<B><I>prepetuating a love of Pop Culture is a kind of job security for youth pastors. As long parents and adults are "out of touch" with pop culture's latest (as is quite normal), then the Youth Pastor still has a job to do.</B></I><BR/><BR/>It is funny that you say this. Where does evangelization play into this? Whether you want to admit or not, pop culture is still apart of our lives. I find it odd that you insist on removing this culture from your life. It is in an through everything you do. The amish are the only ones that are not touched by this culture. If you wear clothes, drive a car, you are apart of pop culture. But I think your perspective is off. Yes we need to teach our own children about God and the Bible. However, we can't stop there and I believe, by your comments, you have stopped there. There is no understanding of the culture in which you live. There is no understanding of the culture in which your children will live. There is no understanding of those in which you are suppose to be evangelizing. Your only understanding is that they are wrong, their culture is wrong, and they are sinful. They need Jesus and they need Jesus now. You have no understanding that they are a lost soul and may know nothing of the Bible or Jesus. They become a number in your check off list and if they don't get saved they became a damned sinner that we will pray for. They don't become a friend. You have separated from your mission. You have separated from that which Christ tells you to be apart. Is this what you are saying?Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13187499358809315191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-16482305804042870942007-04-03T14:36:00.000-07:002007-04-03T14:36:00.000-07:00Jesse, I read the paper by Bauder. First of all wh...Jesse, <BR/><BR/>I read the paper by Bauder. First of all what does "This essay is by<BR/>Kevin T. Bauder president of Central Baptist Theological Seminary. Not every one of the professors, students, or alumni of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses." He is the president of the school. Shouldn't they agree with him. <BR/><BR/>Second, this still doesn't answer my question. I guarantee you that I am not going to offend the teens that I work with by using Christian Contemporary Music at a meeting or event. So if that is the case, do I then have the liberty to use this music, if it isn't going to bring an offense.<BR/><BR/>Third, so Paul says that we offend those that place external rules on their lives and see it as sin. They are called weaker Christians because they have not see the freedom that Christ brings to their lives and they then place these rules on their lives to help them be spiritual in their eyes before God. That then gives me the greater responsibility as the stronger Christian to make sure that I do not offend. Are my methods then morally ok if they do not bring an offense? Or <B>is it morally wrong</B>?<BR/><BR/>I am going to be posting a new discussion on <A HREF="http://thegreaterdebate.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">my blog</A> that I would love to get your and anybody else that reads this' take.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13187499358809315191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-33272472339532033442007-04-03T10:23:00.000-07:002007-04-03T10:23:00.000-07:00Ryan, do you mind shooting me an email @ enipal1@g...Ryan, do you mind shooting me an email @ enipal1@gmail.com.<BR/>ThanksMatthew LaPinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06443707548111194774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-82413624785055757562007-04-03T10:19:00.000-07:002007-04-03T10:19:00.000-07:00Ryan, the question is not a simple one. On one ha...Ryan, the question is not a simple one. On one hand things are things. But on the other everything has a context.Matthew LaPinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06443707548111194774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-57878911906691473992007-04-03T08:55:00.000-07:002007-04-03T08:55:00.000-07:00Should I assume from your answer that the answer i...Should I assume from your answer that the answer is No?Ryan Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01082627274460596880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-31524195483855264042007-04-03T08:53:00.000-07:002007-04-03T08:53:00.000-07:00Was the question not simple enough?Was the question not simple enough?Ryan Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01082627274460596880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-44168846279117111322007-04-03T08:21:00.000-07:002007-04-03T08:21:00.000-07:00I believe some men are reverent and some are notI believe some men are reverent and some are notMatthew LaPinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06443707548111194774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-30367317435844819102007-04-03T07:14:00.000-07:002007-04-03T07:14:00.000-07:00Do you believe in reverence? Do you believe you ca...Do you believe in reverence? Do you believe you can call some things reverent and other things irreverent?Ryan Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01082627274460596880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-80945032830921171322007-04-03T07:00:00.000-07:002007-04-03T07:00:00.000-07:00sorry, it is "Notes toward a definition of culture...sorry, it is "Notes toward a definition of culture"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-66021864961280641832007-04-03T06:59:00.000-07:002007-04-03T06:59:00.000-07:00You really should read Eliot's notes on culture. H...You really should read Eliot's notes on culture. He covers all of your objections quite well. I'll see if I have time later tonight to post some pertinent quotes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-67645424876197778412007-04-02T21:53:00.000-07:002007-04-02T21:53:00.000-07:00(1Corinthians 1:18-31 NAS95S)“For the word of the ...(1Corinthians 1:18-31 NAS95S)<BR/>“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.” 1Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 1Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 1Corinthians 1:22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 1Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 1Corinthians 1:24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1Corinthians 1:26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 1Corinthians 1:27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 1Corinthians 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 1Corinthians 1:29 so that no man may boast before God. 1Corinthians 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 1Corinthians 1:31 so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.””Matthew LaPinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06443707548111194774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-60637999808456391272007-04-02T21:51:00.000-07:002007-04-02T21:51:00.000-07:00Jesse, let me see if I can VERY briefly illustrate...Jesse, let me see if I can VERY briefly illustrate where we are similar and where we are different. The way you are defining culture really is an outworking of core values. This definition isn't really how the average person uses the word. We would both agree that Christianity has a "metaphysical dream" (if you will) which the church ought to embody. So in a real sense, using "culture" they way you do, the church ought to have a unique, Christian culture. But in the sense that I am using the word, (very roughly speaking, the ways and manners which people do things and express themselves), each people groups is going to be distinct. The problem as I see it is that people differ both in skill and in expression. You fail to realize two groups of people may express the same "metaphysical dream" in vastly different ways. Someone was telling a story about how Africans dance down the isle when carrying the offering plates. I would look like a fool doing that. You confuse ones values with one's culture. Your definition of culture is fundamentally flawed because religion is not so broadly defined as you make it. Not only this but biblical religion exists in the metaphysical and takes various expressions in the physical. You have no categories for dealing with difference other than to say it's bad. The problem is not in promoting excellence but rather in requiring it for spirituality. I would love to talk literature with you all day, but when you make fine culture the test of genuine spirituality you've missed it. I am concerned about the path down which this idealistic philosophy leads. I would urge you to seriously consider its flaws. <BR/><BR/>It's late and I've had a long day, so sorry if some of this doesn't make any sense.Matthew LaPinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06443707548111194774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24618106.post-8422296732972561912007-04-02T19:56:00.000-07:002007-04-02T19:56:00.000-07:00Matt- I've been thinking more about your comment t...Matt- I've been thinking more about your comment throughout today. Culture is the incarnation of one's religion. The group culture is the incarnation of that group's religion. The national culture is an incarnation of that group's religion.<BR/><BR/>To deny this is akin to the politician saying, "I'm pro-life in my religion, but not in my politics".<BR/><BR/>All of what we do is our culture.<BR/><BR/>One might say that "all of what we believe is our religion." But you and I both know that when 'the rubber meets the road' our actions don't line up with our beliefs. What we actually do is a result of what we may truly call our religion.<BR/><BR/>A man can assent to all that a fundamentalist baptist church says. That same man can spend every night on his business trips drinking, sleeping around, etc. etc. What may we say about his religion? His professed beliefs were not his beliefs at all. What he did betrayed what was in his heart.<BR/><BR/>One's religion IS what is in their heart. The true loves of one's soul are played out in the living of his life. Those loves are his religion, the living is his culture. <BR/><BR/>Being a good Calvinist, I really dislike coin analogies. But Eliot's saying that culture and religion are two sides of the same coin is right on.<BR/><BR/>You have a culture. It is the incarnation of your religion. They are inseperable. <BR/><BR/>Justin-<BR/><BR/>Pop Culture has its religion. It is godless. It is fleeting. It is the dandelion in summer. It passes away.<BR/><BR/>If one adopts such vanity to save souls, what, may I ask, is he saving those souls to?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com